Sunday, October 12, 2014
All those folks in the underworld...
In class on Thursday, a number of you expressed confusion about why Odysseus describes so many different groups of people in the underworld. For this entry, select one of those groups and write about what you think the significance of that group's inclusion is. You are welcome to write about one of the individuals that Odysseus describes if you would prefer.
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I think its important he met his fallen comrades of the Trojan War, Agamemnon ,Achilleus, Patroklos, Antilochos, and Aias. I think thats important because many of them never managed to get home, and knowing that their friend Odysseus has a chance to get home, would help them feel better. Also they get to ask Odysseus of their sons and how they fought or how they are doing, information they never could have gorton otherwise. Mainly I think that it Odysseus meeting his fallen comrades may not benefit the story, but it gives some sort of closure to Odysseus and the fallen men.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Suki. Something that everyone back in Ithaka doesn't have is closure, they have no idea if Odysseus is even still alive, so I think closure is a big idea in this epic. And to a certain degree, the dead have the same struggle. They want to questions to be answered because they too have been separated from the ones they love. Valuable information is exchanged between Odysseus and fellow warriors, such as when Agamemnon tells the tale of how his wife cheated on him with Aigisthos and mentioned how differently Penelope behaved. Also, these stories went more in depth and in my opinion were more interesting.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Suki, but have discussed a different character from Book 11. Throughout Odysseus’s time in the underworld, Odysseus observed how many people’s lives were taken away. It was definitely not a pleasant experience in the underworld for Odysseus, for watching Títyos being killed seemed gruesome and quite terrifying. In Book 11, Odysseus seemed taken back when he saw Títyos being torn apart by violent vultures on the open and endless field. Odysseus attempted to save poor Títyos, but Odysseus was powerless, and was unable to lure the vultures away from the tasty human body. Títyos was not the only person that Odysseus saw being killed, which made me believe that when an alive human being goes to the underworld, it is common to watch people’s lives being taken away. When seeing pupils in the underworld, people visiting are curious and naturally want to know why their lives were taken away. After knowing the real reason they died, the alive human beings are able to react appropriately, whether it’s feeling sympathetic or thankful that they are no longer on earth. Also, being able to watch Títyos die, reminded Odysseus that he should be thankful that he is still living and has people to love and lean on back home. I believe it is important to include these characters, because they could have an impact on Odysseus’s decisions as his journey continues (Fitzgerald, 204).
ReplyDeleteI believe that it is important to discuss why many people’s lives were taken away because
(Class discussion: Idea to describe Odysseus as powerless)
(Classmates Blogs: Idea that you don’t have to cite every sentence)
(Suki’s response: made me realize that I did not answer the question completely)
I believe that some of the most important encounters for Odysseus in the Underworld is when he sees his fellow companions who fought with him in the war. Personally I think seeing Achilles was important, as well as Agamemnon, because it gives the reader a chance to get a small glimpse of what the war was like. We see how Achilles in the Underworld speaks about his own personal dilemma when it comes to glory and the fame after the war and choosing and long and uneventful life. We also are given a view at some of the darker and more complicated parts of Achilles in just a short encounter and how this reflects the difficulty and endeavors that men had to fight through. Lastly, Odysseus interacting with them gives them hope for the survival of everyone else and gives them a chance to speak with Odysseus to find out information that they wouldn't be able to find out being in the Underworld.
ReplyDeleteThis commented is submitted on behalf of Libby:
ReplyDeleteThe most important people Odysseus saw were his mother, Tiresias, and Agamemnon. Agamemnon because he tell Odysseus how he dies which I find funny since Odysseus is on his way home to his wife. More importantly, because he fought with Odysseus and I think it gives some closure to Odysseus and his men since they clearly feel guilt and extreme mourning over the hundreds of men lost. Odysseus' mother is of importance because she can tell Odysseus about Ithaca and how everyone he cares about was doing. She is also a very important person in Odysseus' life and to meet her can give us insight into Odysseus and him and a person. Finally, Tiresias is important to Odysseus because of the information he give Odysseus about the future and the advice/ warning he receives. I also think it is important that we take note on this interaction because it could affect the decisions Odysseus makes after Book 11.
I agree with Libby, that Teiresias is one of the more important character in book 11. Teiresias gives Odysseus an insight into the future upon his arrival at Thrinakia. He is warned not to the animals from the flock of Helios, because then his ships and crews men will be destroyed, but he will live. Then Odysseus will have to sail home on a ship that is not his own without a crew to return to Ithica. And when he arrives to his palace, his wife will be sleeping with another man. This will lead him into killing all the suitors as pay back. This insight into the future is important because, as readers, we do not know if this will influence Odysseus to not do what Teiresias says, or if he will be greedy and do exactly what he was been told not to do alone with the consequences.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Adedamola in that the most significant people that Odysseus interacts with are the soldiers that he fought with in the Trojan War, such as Agamemnon, Achilleus, Patroklos, Antilochos, and Aias. By seeing the interaction between Odysseus and his fallen comrades we are able to obtain an idea of what the Trojan War was like and how they died. Odysseus also provides closure for those who died by giving them details of what happened after they died and how their families are doing. By seeing his fallen comrades in the underworld, Odysseus must gain a sense of thankfulness which would give him more confidence in his future adventures.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Libby; Agamémnon was certainly one of the more significant shades that Odysseus encountered in the underworld. Firstly, Agamémnon seemed important because he was the first shade that appeared after all of the women left. In addition, he tells Odysseus his wife "defiled herself and all of her sex" (page 199), and that "the day of faithful wives is gone forever" (page 200). This seemed significant because Odysseus' long and treacherous journey was all to get back home to his wife.
ReplyDeleteI also found Odysseus' encounter with his mother to be quite significant. His mother tells him of how badly she missed him, and that she died of loneliness for him. And after hearing all of this, Odysseus can't even hug her! I found this to be a saddening moment, which really gave me an idea of how much Odysseus has lost.
I can actually see how every person he meets with is important because it is all about closure. Odysseus and the shades were all looking for information about things they not able to experience. They want to be able to empathize with one another and get over their feelings of sadness and disappointment. Even Elpenor, who had a pretty sad death, was able to ask Odysseus the last wish of giving his body a proper burial.(pg. 187) Whether or not Odysseus actually follows through on his word, Elpenor has found some peace in being able to express his last request. The dead warriors was an important group because Odysseus had not seen them since the war. Those were his comrades and friends and you would want to know how what became of your old war buddy, right? This was like a mini reunion for them.
ReplyDeleteI think that the most important people Odysseus encounters are Agamémnon and his mother. Meeting Agamémnon not only brings Odysseus closure, as others have stated, but it also gives Odysseus the chance to see one of his old friends and learn how in fact he was killed. I think this is interesting because Odysseus is traveling home to see his family and his people, which includes his wife, and there is no way for him to know if his wife will be as cruel as Klytemnestra. It is important that Odysseus sees his mother because it shows us that even though Odysseus can seem cruel or selfish at times, he is still human and he has feelings, just like everyone else. When he sees his mom, he breaks down and the only thing he wants to do at that moment is be with her forever(even though he knows that isn't possible). It is moments like these that remind us that even though heroes may have some flaws, they are still people.
ReplyDeleteOut of all the encounters Odysseus had in the underworld, I think that seeing Ajax stood out to me the most. I do not think that seeing Ajax was necessarily vital to the plot, but it would definitely be interesting to see how Odysseus handles the somewhat awkward situation put at hand. As many of you know now, Ajax committed suicide after losing a battle to Odysseus himself over Achilles. After Ajax merely slipped away without even speaking with Odysseus, I was somewhat surprised. On one hand you could say that Ajax would confront Odysseus, and on the other hand you could say that he would refuse to speak with him, in the end the latter was shown. I think that this scene was important because it gave Odysseus the chance to observe what pain he may have inflicted on fellow Trojan warriors, and how not all of his fellow comrades were as loyal as they would seem....
ReplyDelete